Soon the drivers, matrons and mechanics of Pioneer are going to be offered a contract from our employer. This contract was negotiated between our employer, and 1181. 1181 did not approve this contract, only the drivers, matrons and mechanics can approve or disapprove the contract. Then we will then be given the opportunity to vote on this contract. If the contract is approved, it will take effect immediately, and extend to June 2015. We believe due to the state of our economy, and the circumstances brought forth by Mayor Bloomberg, that there will probably be give backs in this contract. What the give backs will consist of has yet to be determined. Our employer has stated that these give backs are necessary in order for him to be competitive in bidding for future work. Now the way we see it, if you place money on a table, and tell someone that they can help themselves, we don't think there would be any money left.
THIS IS THE TIME that we can make a significant difference, THIS IS THE TIME that WE will inform our employer what the drivers, matrons and mechanics think is FAIR.
If WE, UNITED AS ONE, feel that we are NOT getting a FAIR DEAL, then THIS IS THE TIME to vote NO. As soon as we are notified of the details of the contract, we will call a meeting at the Arthur Kill yard. We then will discuss the contract and either approve or disapprove it. REMEMBER; please keep in mind a vote to disapprove the contract will ultimately lead to a STRIKE.
Thank you all
Ernie and Andy
Thanks, Ernie and Andy, and I hope people pay attention to the last sentence of your post.
I'm sure nobody wants Pioneer to be priced out of existence. Not us, not the company. If fairness is truly what both parties are striving for, then it seems to me that 2 things should be evident:
1) We should not be expected to absorb any future losses in earnings due to a decreased bid before those losses actually occur.
2) When a lower bid does take effect (i.e., after June 2015) then the loss in earnings should be born both by the company and workers.
This was not the case with the contract that was imposed on us in April, and any similar contract would be equally unfair. There is no doubt that the industry is changing, and not for the better, and we have to change with it for our good and the good of the company. Therefore, I think it is time for some creative, out-of-the-box thinking when it comes to making contracts.
To agree to a dollar amount in reduction of compensation when we don't know what the reduction in bid will be is not fair. And for that reduction to begin before a lower-bid contract takes effect is even more unfair.
So, how can it be made fair? This is where the process of negotiating a contract has to take a completely new and revamped approach. To me, the only way a fair agreement can be reached, is for our compensation to be proportionate to and contingent upon the company's actual reduction in earnings ... and only when that takes effect.
For instance, and this is simplified for the sake of making the example, if the future bid is 20% less, then we should be expected, (and willing), to absorb only about HALF that loss ... a 10% reduction in compensation, whether pay, accrual, etc., or some combination there of. (It may not be exactly a 50/50 sharing of loss. See note below.)
Not knowing at this point what the future bid/loss will be, stating dollar amounts of reductions to us now is not fair to either side. A contract should be proposed that will state percentages of reductions proportionate to and contingent upon the new contract the company makes with the board of ed in 2015, and only at that time should our current terms be changed. Because it's never been done doesn't mean it can't be done!
Yes, this would be a radical and unprecedented change in the mindset of designing contracts, but it would be extremely fair, if fairness ... for the good of BOTH parties ... is truly what both sides desire. It would allow Neil to be as competitive as he needs to be to keep his work, and allow us to keep working.
In any event, we should not be presented with any contract before we are "made whole" for the past monies due us as stipulated by court order.
Note: Our compensation is only a portion of Neil's overhead, and the only portion of that overhead that can be reduced. The other portions of that overhead ... fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc., etc., etc., will stay the same or increase. Therefore, splitting the loss in earnings may, for example, have to be 60/40 (60% from us, 40% from him), depending on determining what percentage of his overhead we actually represent.
Excellent post, Buzz.
Buzz for 1181 president in june 2014 ... well said buzz....my question is if we vote it down we automatically go on strike...im not understanding that part...and if that is true i guess reliant isnt working tomorrow morning cause they voted down there garbage....i still have faith our contract will be fair but time will tell..
Quote from: yabba on October 27, 2013, 02:54:24 PM
Buzz for 1181 president in june 2014 ... well said buzz....my question is if we vote it down we automatically go on strike...im not understanding that part...
Thanks for the endorsement! LOL.
A lot of people don't get the strike part. Look, if a contractor says, "This is my final and best offer," Michael has no choice but to present it for a vote. For him NOT to do so would be failure to bargain in good faith ... something not looked upon favorably by the courts, as the coalition learned the hard way. The ONLY way a contractor could be induced to reopen negotiations would be to end a strike. So yes, a "no" vote is a strike vote. Going back to the table without one would be virtually impossible.
Quote from: Grrr on October 27, 2013, 02:45:45 PM
Excellent post, Buzz.
Every now and then I suffer episodes of temporary
sanity. :wink1:
Quote from: Buzz on October 27, 2013, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: Grrr on October 27, 2013, 02:45:45 PM
Excellent post, Buzz.
Every now and then I suffer episodes of temporary sanity. :wink1:
:drink_beer: :drink_beer: :show: :show:
What you are saying is true. The problem is there are many non union companies out there. making less then we are..I wonder who let them do that..?? Anyway, I totally agree that he should honor our existing contract until 2015, but apparently he is not. Is the new mayor going to help us?? We have to be strong and I feel that what Ernie directs us to do we should stand behind him.
Was this contract negotiated with 1181 or are the owners shoving it down are throats again??? Also when is this supposed contract being released??? If one company is
Losing money and another making a killing why should the drivers at the company making profit give anything back??? We need to break up the coalition.. Pioneer drivers should give nothing back!!! NOTHING!!!
I totally agree with Groose623...NOTHING back
Buzz...excellent points! I understand if the union does not present the offered contract for a vote it would be considered not negotiating in good faith BUT isnt the company "NOT" negotiating in good faith by offering us less money while still getting paid the higher rate by DOE?
Quote from: terminator on October 30, 2013, 04:19:23 PM
Buzz...excellent points! I understand if the union does not present the offered contract for a vote it would be considered not negotiating in good faith BUT isnt the company "NOT" negotiating in good faith by offering us less money while still getting paid the higher rate by DOE?
No, the company isn't obligated to negotiate basis what their current contract is. That's the whole point of my suggestion ... which would be shot out of the water based exactly on what it is predicated ... fairness.
Apparently in the near future Ernie is going to call a meeting and present to all 400 or so members a contract offer from Neil. Ernie is not going to force anyone to vote either way but I'm sure he will voice his opinion. I suggest we all give weight to that opinion but at the same time we should all speak up at that meeting the same way we speak up on these gadgets. Remember in February after only 2 or 3 weeks into the strike how each and everyone of our thoughts and emotions were. The time to speak your thoughts is when we're all together before we vote. Remember this time the vote is not Local wide. So no matter what way the 400 of us vote is the way it will be. SPEAK YOUR MIND AT THE RIGHT TIME. Either way this vote will definitely have an impact on all of us and our families. LETS MAKE A TRULY UNITED DECISION!!!
OK this is how it should be with no ifs or buts about it. Forget the verbal votes and bullshit stories you will hear people say before you vote. Do what we did so many times before when we had to vote in the garage for shop steward when more then one was running for the job of shop steward, paper ballots, mark yes or no on a piece of paper drop it in a box and count the votes in front of all workers and of course get one of them high paying assholes down to our garage to having everyone sign in before they vote and drop the paper in the box. And that way no one and I do mean no one will know how anyone voted and no one has to fear what the boss or union reps. will do if the vote does not go the way they want it to go. So bring the box out and lets have a fair vote and no one has to worry about shit from anyone.
Buzz...if 'we' (the 400 drivers currently at pioneer) voted NO to the contract -could the company hire other out of work 1181 drivers?
Quote from: terminator on October 31, 2013, 05:39:26 AM
Buzz...if 'we' (the 400 drivers currently at pioneer) voted NO to the contract -could the company hire other out of work 1181 drivers?
No ... not unless we went on strike. Otherwise, we'd just keep working under the imposed contract. (And not get our retro for a long, long time.)
But if we except the deal we get our money that was illegally withheld if not he continues to screw us ? Sounds like blackmail to me?
Quote from: 1union on October 31, 2013, 06:08:49 PM
But if we except the deal we get our money that was illegally withheld if not he continues to screw us ? Sounds like blackmail to me?
Well, we could reject it, have to work under the terms of it anyway (or guys on strike) ... and wait a couple of years until appeals are exhausted to get our money.
Quote from: worker341 on October 31, 2013, 01:17:21 AM
Do what we did so many times before when we had to vote in the garage for shop steward when more then one was running for the job of shop steward, paper ballots, mark yes or no on a piece of paper drop it in a box and count the votes in front of all workers and of course get one of them high paying assholes down to our garage to having everyone sign in before they vote and drop the paper in the box.
If by "high paying assholes" you mean the guys that put in more hours a day than we actually work in a week ... especially now negotiating to get us the best contract in the city ... I'm told yes, at least one of them will be on hand to oversee paper balloting.
This is why we should have them down once a month in our yard so we can address the issues we have and put the bullshit to rest.
Why aren't we waiting until after Bloomberg leaves to negotiate a contract. Leave everything as is for another 2 months.
It seems like a rush negotiation.
Quote from: rc1790 on November 01, 2013, 11:05:52 PM
Why aren't we waiting until after Bloomberg leaves to negotiate a contract. Leave everything as is for another 2 months.
It seems like a rush negotiation.
Oh, it is. But it's not the union that's rushing it, nor can they delay it if they're to "bargain in good faith." The sooner we make less, the sooner "they" make more.
Buzz for president!!!!
I am speaking from my heart when I say this. I will vote to reject ANY contract that does NOT pay an additional days pay when I must go to work (election day) and a driver that has been here for 1 year is home in bed and getting same pay as me!!!!!!! End of story! Neil is getting SAME rate per Diem per bus as always! Tired of senior men giving up $$$ to carry the burden! End of story!
Just my opinion but if he wants us to listen to him cry poverty and give up anything I want to see his books and let's see how much the prick is loosening. Also I want every dime he has stole from my family and continue to play bullshit games. Shame on any 1181 member who does anything for the office or use their personal phones. He is slowly destroying his own company. He wonders why so many comp cases when he hires a manger to break everyone s balls to no end make people hate their jobs an co workers.Maybe he should go back to the days where the union covered the work (#1 fist pic first bus let drivers cover trips and do things in senoirarty so there's no favoritism. This company would run it self. Company and union must come together and fight the real problem the city. remember don't do nothing for the office management is stealing your money and harassing workers like never before .grow some balls to stand up for your rights and do not use personal cell phones stay strong 1181
Buzz you still have my vote and my nomination,but i have to differ with you on 1 issue...here goes ...lol..
seriously the 4 hours pay for covering a run is total bull$hit,its not about $$ it about not covering work period.we expect guys to give up 3500.00 a year and OPT back into the benefits,which is never going to happen either way,but on the next hand certain people are covering work,it doesnt make a differnce what their compensation is for that...
Quote from: yabba on November 02, 2013, 11:30:22 AM
Buzz you still have my vote and my nomination,but i have to differ with you on 1 issue...here goes ...lol..
seriously the 4 hours pay for covering a run is total bull$hit,its not about $$ it about not covering work period.we expect guys to give up 3500.00 a year and OPT back into the benefits,which is never going to happen either way,but on the next hand certain people are covering work,it doesnt make a differnce what their compensation is for that...
I understand what you're saying but the work
has to be covered, (as per contract), one way or another. Better to be paid 4 hours, (thanks to Ernie) instead of 1. Capeesh?
Chicco, Guess i am so uninformed that i don't even know what you are talking about with "you working Election Day while a guy with one year is home in bed". But i guess you don't mind when that same guy is at the Bronx Zoo or up in mid town Manhattan day after day while you are home relaxing. One Union......trips for everyone! Also, i almost always agree with everything that John has to say.
its called seniority if we did everything in seniority order no one would have reason to complainso when you put in your 20 years you could sit home on your couch while the other guys do the trips that's just the way it goes.
Just the way it is......doesn't make it right!
Hey Spanish Johnny. What do you think I did when I started 24 years ago! Took me 7 years to get off trips! Went to manhattan more times than you will know! Before I started the trips were put on the bottom runs. The ONLY way I vote yes on new contract proposal from Neil is if we go back to that! Post all runs without trips. If company needs 150 routes for trip coverage then when there are 150 runs left on board, they are trip runs. It's called seniority my man. This new contract proposal hurts senior drivers MUCH MORE than juniors drivers. Educate yourself before you jump to snap judgements that everybody should be doing trips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:thumbup:
I read these comments on this site and it's a damn shame. The Mayor & Neil r really laughing now. Fellow Union Brothers going back & forth at each other instead of getting together and trying their best to get this Local back to where it belongs.
I don't know what the contract proposal is, there are so many rumours out there I cant keep up with them. Last I heard we were losing Easter, February, and one day per summer vacation check. For a senior man getting 5 weeks, thats about $3,600.00. If we're going to lose any more than one day per summer check, it's NO vote from me too, and I know lots of people who feel the same as I do. Even a person getting 4 or 3 summer checks it's a massive financial loss to have to deal with all of a sudden. I don't care how Ernie breaks it down to us, it's NO !! My heart really goes out to Ernie . . . . . it reall does. Now, as far as the comp cases go, Neal only has to blame himself for that. When you hire a sick fuck like Owen to treat his employees like shit . . . . . thats what you get. Listen, it doesn't take a genious to manage a school bus company, it's not like your balancing a multi-million dollar budget, he only have to harass the men. A manager of a Mcdonalds or Taco Bell has a tougher and more involved job than Owen. When your people feel harassed and pissed off . . . . they slip and fall. Especially with the yard in the winter, it's always a sheet of ice. Any way, to make a long story short, if I'm losing to many days, it's NO.
For me a single dime out of my check and its a no no no to the bullshit contract. people post your no's he reads this site too. NO NO and NO. and go to hell.
I think some of you give Owen too much credit. The spike in comp cases occurred coincidentally following the strike/imposed contract. Apparently some people experience loss of muscle coordination and balance control caused by their wallets becoming suddenly lighter.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is a multi-million dollar budget. With a lot of those millions going to Neil.
What is the big rush with this contract?? The new mayor said he would sit in on union negotiations.. If the new mayor puts the epp back in for future contracts we don't need Neil,let him loose his work, we will just follow the work into the next company. Didn't the board of ed just have a master pick for 150 escorts and drivers?? Our union should have one contract for all 1181 drivers not separate ones. I vote NO for this so called new contract... Did Cordiello take a pay cut?? Doubt it... I smell a rat.....
Quote from: driver on November 04, 2013, 02:24:27 AM
What is the big rush with this contract?? The new mayor said he would sit in on union negotiations.. If the new mayor puts the epp back in for future contracts we don't need Neil,let him loose his work, we will just follow the work into the next company. Didn't the board of ed just have a master pick for 150 escorts and drivers?? Our union should have one contract for all 1181 drivers not separate ones. I vote NO for this so called new contract... Did Cordiello take a pay cut?? Doubt it... I smell a rat.....
Again, it's not the union that's rushing it. The sooner we make less, the sooner
they make more. What the new mayor may or may not do is fodder for the future. We have to deal with the here and now, like it or not. Michael, Eddie and Ernie have been working many, many hours to get us a palatable contract. It may not be what we want, but it will be the best one out there ... only possible because they are negotiating with each company individually.
it is just so funny how a guy will vote NO because he will have to work election day and get the same pay as a guy 'home in bed' BUT when someone brings up the idea of how this SAME guy is home while others are doing trips...he gets mad and pleads seniority!..LOL It is laughable! Is that what the contract is all about...worrying about someone else is doing? As we all know when you pick a run - you look at what days the schools are off/etc...not exactly rocket science! I think guys should start getting the message that Ernie/Andy are telling us concerning the real important contract issues!
Hey guys, too much rhetoric, sounds like a bunch of old woman sitting around playing mahjong. Really, you got to be kidding, where does this information about the contract come from. I just don't get it. So much bitching, we shouldn't give this back, we shouldn't give that back, really, let's face it, there is going to be give backs, whether we like it or not. I don't like it, but lets be realistic, and all this bitching about the union. Hey guys, guess what, if we didn't have a union we probably would be out of a job by now. In case you didn't know it, the union saved your jobs. Bet you never heard that before. That's right, the union saved your jobs, there I said it again. I know the strike was a disaster, but we made it a disaster. In case your forgot, the union didn't vote on a strike, we did. Hello. We were weak, we even had people telling me that they were going to cross the picket lines. Others were calling me on my phone night after night, asking me to tell the union to end the strike. The union finally gave in to our demand and ended the strike. When we went back to work, we went back with an imposed contract, it was terrible, money coming out of our weekly salary, no accrual checks, no OT, now we had a worse situation than before, I had people telling me, I need my job, let them take this, and let them take that, as long as I have a job, but guess what, everyone went to work, everyone did their job, it was amazing, we had gone backwards, but everyone was doing an excellent job. Well the union sucked it up, took a deep breath and attacked the bleak situation, and I got to admit to you, the higher ups in the union were very skeptical, but never the less, went forward. You may not have agreed on their strategy, and you may not liked their approach, but they won every court decision there was, in the NLRB, and Federal Court. So now after the union wins all these decisions, all of a sudden we grow balls, we're all over the internet with demands, we don't want to give up anything, what a year will do, even bitching about trips, what the hell is that all about. It's too bad we just can't all be on the same page. Please wait for a contract to be offered to us, read it, study it, talk it over with your buddies, lets talk it over with everyone we work with, and if we don't like it, well you know the rest. It's up to us, but remember, it's YOUR decision not your friends, it's what is good for you and your family. Oh yeah, some of the people bitching, are people that would not opt back into the medical.
Well said Andy. Guys lets take his advice and stop all this nonsense on the internet. As Andy stated wait for the contract offer then talk it over with ur family and coworkers and make ur decision. I'm mad, I'm nervous and aggravated and I want to make sure that WE ALL make the right decision. AGAIN WELL SAID ANDY!!!
Thanks for the much needed reality check, Andy. Yes, the union made their mistakes with the strike, and the loss of benefits was a big cause for lack of support, but I believe they have vindicated themselves by staying the course and patiently and methodically facing the problem with their successful legal attack ... not always the easiest thing to do in the face of so much criticism.
The in-fighting is ridiculous. We were all junior men once and all paid our dues with the trips. I see no sense in that dividing us in any way.
Not fair to have to work on a public school holiday without extra pay? No, it's not. Would it be any better it were solved by NOT paying those who didn't have to work? (Effectively eliminating the 40 week guarantee.) Of course not. Let's hope some middle ground was reached on this matter.
Nobody wants give-backs but we have to realize that these are different times. Better to be flexible to a point, than to be total hard-asses without jobs.
p.s. Andy ... only edited your post for some grammatical errors, as I know you would have wanted. Thanks for the post.
As always...THANK YOU ANDY!
With all the bitching and moaning they hear -
I have NEVER met more dedicated people than Ernie and Andy!
Thanks guys!
I don't care how you slice it, with the 2 holiday reductions and the one day per summer week. For a person with 20yrs or 25yrs that's an 8% hit. More if you add in all the other bells & whistles. That's a nice chunk out of a persons annual salary to live with. Usually a reduction in salary would be 2% or 3%, but this ? Open contract or not, you'll never see them again once they're gone. That's a big cut !
Quote from: Rock Steady on November 05, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
I don't care how you slice it, with the 2 holiday reductions and the one day per summer week. For a person with 20yrs or 25yrs that's an 8% hit. More if you add in all the other bells & whistles. That's a nice chunk out of a persons annual salary to live with. Usually a reduction in salary would be 2% or 3%, but this ? Open contract or not, you'll never see them again once they're gone. That's a big cut !
That's very true, but still better than the 20-25% cut that was imposed upon us in April, and could be imposed on us again if we turn this down. Not as good as what we once had, but better than what we once were handed. We have to realize that the gravy train has left the station ... like it or not.
Yea and pulled into neil's (pocket) station!!!!!
Remember everything is rumor untill you actually read it. Obviously & unfortunately there will be give backs but it's still better than "THE BEST & FINAL OFFER" that was imposed on us. I don't recall any talk about going back on strike then. I have to assume that Ernie believes this is the best proposal that could be negotiated AT THIS TIME. If not he would not put it before us. Remember nobody knows all the people & circumstances involved better than him. I thank him & Andy for their part in this negotiation including them initiating the Opt-in. Also I want to thank all the members who offered to Opt back in. Your gesture truly shows what the word SOLIDARITY means
.
All this talk about senority, how about buses should be given out by senority as opposed to who kisses a** to get new ones or who is bringing in food to management and doing all favors to get new buses. The list goes on and on. Nevermind all of 1181 being united the Arthur Kill Road yard alone can't stand united. The rats will always be there as well as the kiss as**es and the backstabbers. I'm here more than 10 years and it is getting worse and worse. It's sad not feeling the same pride I once felt being a Pioneer Employee. Have a great week all
Ernie I am an Attendent at AE been on the job 9 years this Feb. Please enlighten us girls about what the heck is going on with our company,are we loses our jobs as of Dec 31?drivers got terminating letters. No has told us anything from our union. TY
Quote from: spunky on November 11, 2013, 06:31:20 PM
All this talk about senority, how about buses should be given out by senority as opposed to who kisses a** to get new ones or who is bringing in food to management and doing all favors to get new buses. The list goes on and on. Nevermind all of 1181 being united the Arthur Kill Road yard alone can't stand united. The rats will always be there as well as the kiss as**es and the backstabbers. I'm here more than 10 years and it is getting worse and worse. It's sad not feeling the same pride I once felt being a Pioneer Employee. Have a great week all
great post...as far as the new buses there will never be a so called fair way of giving them out...but the other things going on is a joke ...DTA ....the union brotherhood is gone ..too many cheif and not enough indians
Quote from: Dip on November 11, 2013, 07:08:47 PM
Ernie I am an Attendent at AE been on the job 9 years this Feb. Please enlighten us girls about what the heck is going on with our company,are we loses our jobs as of Dec 31?drivers got terminating letters. No has told us anything from our union. TY
Dip I feel the same way, I'm an 1181 Driver from Atlantic express and I've heard nothing from our delegates or shop steward. maybe we'll hear something this week.